CHLL – Cally, Heather, Lois and Louise – reminisce about the open-hearted conversations they had with five generational focus groups during the 2021-2022 school year. Gen Z, millennials, GenX, baby boomers, and members of the greatest generations discussed with CHLL how the problems of education and the world intersect and reinforce each other, and how the solutions for education and the world can be successfully leveraged.

LINKS FROM THIS EPISODE

• New York Times article on how Generation Z activists take an empowered stance for addressing the climate crisis: OK Doomer and the Climate Advocates Who say It’s Not Too Late
• Encore.org brings older and younger changemakers together to solve problems, bridge divides, and co-create the future.

INTRODUCING OUR FRIENDS: FROM GEN Z TO THE GREATEST GENERATION

Heather Francis: C H L L stands for Cally, Heather, Lois, and Louise. We are CHLL and we are ready for another chill conversation. In this second episode, we're excited to tell you more about the generational focus groups that we hosted this past year.

Lois Hetland: These focus groups were our friends. To create cohorts for each of the generational groups, we chose participants based on the year they were born. We had a Gen Z group where we met with four high school students; we met with four millennials (our friends ages 25 to 40); four Gen X’s; four baby boomers; and we met with four members of the greatest generation, people over 80, sometimes known as the silent generation or the post-war generation.

WHAT WE WANTED TO LEARN FROM GENERATIONAL FOCUS GROUPS

Louise Music: We wanted to know what these different groups thought about the challenges and opportunities facing education and the world at large, and how their perspectives were similar or different from ours. We wanted to see if the conversations we were having as CHLL, just the four of us, even mattered to other people. We also wanted to practice and improve our skills for facilitating good conversations. We'd become so used to how the four of us talk to each other every two weeks, and we needed time and experience in exploring what these conversations look and feel like with others. The questions that we asked each group were:

1. What are issues or opportunities facing the world today?
2. What are issues and opportunities in education today?
3. How do issues in education and the world intersect?
4. How can people from different generations benefit from each other's wisdom and creativity?
5. What suggestions do you have for our podcast?

Cally Flox: In September 2021, we started with a mixed generational beta group. We had one millennial, one boomer and a self described ‘Xenial’: GenX and millennial named James:

James Huston: “I'm technically a millennial, but I kind of feel like I fit more in that microgeneration between millennial and Generation X because I was almost an adult when 9/11 happened. I grew up without the internet, stuff like that, that doesn't quite fit a normal millennial.”

Cally Flox: James is a member of our team at the BYU Arts Partnership, and so is Alyssa. She's an elementary educator and arts administrator and she resonated with our attention to intergenerational connection and communication.

Alyssa Dixon:  “Every generation thinks that they're just so much more progressive and so much better than the next, without relying on all of these, you know, amazing skills and a wealth of experience that they have. I think a lot of times, they tend to feel that way because there's a feeling of the previous generation looking down on the next generation. If we were able to get rid of those negative, resentful feelings towards one another and make that bridge like your student represented, I feel like we just would be able to accomplish so much more. Because they do both have very different perspectives. I think they're both so valuable and it does feel like there's a frequent lack of opportunity to connect.”

Cally Flox: Mark, the boomer in the group, a retired professor of dance in Utah, confirmed the idea that education is an essential way to impact issues in the world:

Mark Borchalt: “I can't think of a single issue…. If you look at health care, if you look at climate change, if you look at, you know I don't think there's anything that you can't address through education. What if children grow up being more facile in their ability to look at the world, their ability to problem solve, and identify what issues are, rather than answering questions—to be able to form good questions and say, ‘What does this mean?’ ‘Where do I fit inside of that?’”

Cally Flox: This group also confirmed how complex the issues in the world and in education are. Here's a bit where James starts weaving home life and family issues with school issues.

James Huston: “One of the big problems that I'm seeing is that families and parents and siblings are not helping each other out as much. They're expecting teachers to not only teach the education side of things, but also teach all these life skills and basically raise them. I realize there's a lot of circumstances where kids don't have a stable home life to come up with. But in general terms, I would just say, in my lifetime, I've seen less and less parent involvement, and they put everything on the teachers and expect them to do everything.”

GENERATION Z SPEAK TO THEIR SCHOOLING EXPERIENCE (AGES 10-25)

Heather Francis: The empathy that James expressed for teachers is something we found in a lot of our focus groups, but especially in our Gen Z focus group. This group had a lot to say about being a student in school, because that is their current lived experience. Each high-school student who participated with us touched on mental health and stress and the expectations made on students and teachers in schools. Noah is a high-school student from Utah sharing his concerns about mental health.

Noah Flurer: “I also have a ginormous issue with mental health problems in general. And in public school, it is really a massive issue. You go to school, and you can't operate at all. You see the counselors and they just tell you that you can walk through—just go through the motions—, although you literally can't. It's an issue of more or less: they want you to be within the school, and just go through the motions, rather than actually taking care of your mental health. So I've often had to pretend to be sick, just so I can get a mental health day, just so I can rejuvenate, so I can go back to the very exhausting experience that is school.”

Heather Francis: Angelo, a high-school student in Fremont, California, empathized with teachers and the toll that schooling takes on the mental health of students and teachers alike:

Angelo Gallegos: “Teachers, they have to go through a bunch of stuff, six different periods, they have to grade—almost over 200 papers—they have to make up their assignments, they have to do so much. I don't think it's their job. But rather, maybe more counselors’ jobs, more therapist jobs, because teachers already have a lot on their plate.”

MILLENNIALS ADDRESS LABELS AND AGEISM (AGES 26-41)

Heather Francis: After we met with the Gen Z group in mid-February 2022, we met with millennials. We joked around about what it means to be a millennial.

Marco Alberto: “I think 'just a 90’s baby’ has always felt like the correct term for me. Just like ‘95, so I’m right in the middle.”

Amy Crowe: “I’m 39, but I feel like, I remember in college people would say things like, Oh, you don't seem like a millennial. I'm thinking, ‘Is that a compliment? Or an insult?’ I'm not quite sure.  I always joked that I was the last generation to grow up without technology, but the first to really have it as a high schooler. For example, I got my pager in ninth grade.”

Matthew Teitter: “Yeah, I’m a Zennial because I know how to change a tire and I know how to convert a Word document to a portable document format PDF. So that makes me able to operate between both digital and analog comfortably. So I’m from 1982. What am I?”

Heather Francis: This group really rallied around the need for intergenerational conversations and talked a lot about their current experiences, working with students and teachers inside and outside of schools. These were busy professionals that we got to speak with one evening, so here's a few clips. We're going to start with Marco Alberto. He's an after-school teacher and community activist in California.

Marco Alberto: “Being in the middle is so important and kind of being able to translate things in ways that you know, the elders might express something, but it needs to be translated and made accessible for younger folks to hear. And likewise, young folks who express things there, we have to take back up to the elders. So many examples of decisions being made on young people's behalf—but they're not at these meetings, they're in school. Even if the best intentions are there, it's like their voice isn't being heard. I think the responsibility of, ‘I need to properly listen and really hear out the elders and hear out the young folks.’ But also to represent those youth when they're not at the table.”

Heather Francis: Here’s Amy Lynn Crowe, an instructional coach and secondary educator from Arizona:

Amy Crowe: “I have a 12-year-old son, and he asks tons of questions all the time. But in my high school, the students are so afraid of critical race theory and SEL, and what's acceptable to ask and understand, and what's not. I think there are such gray areas there—between what some people feel is acceptable versus others. I see these gray areas within our school district and our school and our teenagers, and it reflects how we grew up. In a nutshell: a lack of understanding of perspectives, and then possible fear of asking those questions.”

Heather Francis:  Here's Charity Hall, financial advisor in California:

Charity Hall: “Yes, absolutely the intergenerational flow is vital. I think, historically, we can look at history throughout all time, we can look at successful civilizations, and it's because that generational construct is there. But what does that collaboration look like? What do push-pull interactions look like? Are we listening to our students? Are we listening in the classroom from every age, whether that's master's programs, whether it's kindergarten, whether it's after-school programs? If we are listening, how are we applying the information that we're learning? How are we collaborating and allowing students to teach us as educators?”

Heather Francis:  Our last millennial (or maybe ‘Xennial’), Matthew Teitter— a principal from Utah—discusses ageism:

Matthew Teitter: “I wonder if we treated ages like we do racism and sexism, if we would get a lot farther. Because I know that it's a real ‘-ism.’ Whether people are biased against children or biased against older adults, or somewhere in between, the ‘-isms’ are real. Stereotyping, the discrimination, is real. Just understand that ageism is a real issue. As hard as most of us work on getting rid of any kind of racism or sexism or other things like homophobia, any of those things, we need to get rid of our agist tendencies. But for whatever reason, ageist attitudes are more socially acceptable; for example, using the cliche ‘boomer,’—that's not okay. I think those are some important things to interrogate. The importance of finding meaningful information that tends to be held maybe in a particular age span, I think is important to discover, appreciate, and look on with wondering curiosity.”

GENERATION X DISCUSSES CONNECTIONS WITH EACH OTHER AND THE  ENVIRONMENT (AGES 42-57)

Louise Music: The Gen X focus group jumped right into the urgent and complex issues in the world that most concerned them. They were really going deep into big ideas. Keely Song, a choreographer and dance professor from Utah, spoke about the dramatic transitions that need to be made:

Keely Song: “I think an urgent pressing issue of our time really is the environment. How do we help us move along as a society for a radical ecological conversion within ourselves and within our hearts? For me, the process and the journey has been a little slow. I know sometimes I'm not the best at things. But I'm trying to speak out. There is this battle between trying to work with the expanding population. How do we make enough room so housing is affordable? At the same time, though, what resources are we using up? I think that's a critical juncture point that can only really be solved with art and with science coming together.”

Louise Music: Arzu Mistry, a community-based artist from Bangalore, India, who is currently studying for her doctorate at Columbia University, built on Keely's ideas:

Arzu Mistry: “I agree that we really have to look at the dynamics of climate change and ecological collapse. That's definitely one of the big issues. I think the other one is the need to engage deeply with difference and the tensions around diversity and inclusion of all kinds that are across the world. I think connected to both are a challenge to the Western extractive capitalist mode of rigid thought ‘this is the only way the world works’ and instead looking at alternatives. I really struggle with how we've severed the connections between nature and culture, between ecology and sociology, between science and the humanities. I think that that split, and the lack of the interconnection, has really led us to this point: a framework for education that does not make interconnections visible.”

Louise Music: Derek Fenner, an artist and scholar in the juvenile and racial incarceration system from South Carolina, spoke to the systemic issues of white supremacy:

Derek Fenner: “I think white racial literacy is something that is holding this country back, because we do not have white racial literacy. And it is really the root of many of the things that we've been dealing with since before this nation even began, as the diaspora brought what has happened here. I think we've got to start creating shared stories across these intergenerational lines. Not only that—because that's transformative—but we also have to create action around those shared stories. Action makes revolutions happen. For me, it's all possible. It might be too late. But there's no reason not to push forward with radically changing the way we're doing things because it's clearly not working and hasn't been working for a long time.”

Louise Music: Mickey Zibello, a musician and a contractor from Boston, spoke to the divisive nature of our public discourse, and how that further complicates our ability to agree on what any of the important issues actually are:

Mickey Zibello: “It feels to me harder than ever, in my lifetime, to even agree on what the facts are anymore because of the way that the internet and social media are being used as propaganda. I know this has been with humankind forever, but it feels like it's at a whole other level now.”

BOOMERS (Ages 58-76)

Lois Hetland: Boomers were really concerned with social equity in schools, and with listening across all sorts of boundaries. Here's what Jerry Kelly, a retired financial executive from Boston, had to say:

Jerry Kelly: “I was fortunate enough to have a very successful career in finance. My children were fortunate enough to attend high-quality independent schools. It's a very different experience than somebody who lives in Fort Smith, Arkansas, or eastern Montana, or inner city Boston. How do we deliver quality across the spectrum? How do we provide funding that's self-perpetuating? If you live in Wellesley, Massachusetts, the funding is going to be much higher because it's at the local level, than it will be in Adams, Massachusetts. If the real estate tax revenue is so much higher, they're going to be able to invest much more into their schools and deliver a better product to those who are motivated to take it. That's not the case in Fort Smith, Arkansas. It's not the case in rural Mississippi or Alabama. My concern is, how do we provide equal opportunity to all students without regard to their economic status?”

Lois Hetland: Boomers were also concerned with how stressful schools are. Here's Jim Reese, who leads a network for public school educators in Washington, D.C.:

Jim Reese: “The burnout rate is very real. The exhaustion. I've talked to a number of really wonderful principals who run highly-functioning schools in inner city D.C., and they said it's the toughest year, much tougher than 2021. Much tougher than 1920. This year is the toughest they've experienced yet. Every day brings in huge mental health crises on the part of the kids, the families they're coming from, and the teachers. And then there's the physical health crises that are multiplying. Every day they're putting out fires, and they can't get to any really substantive teaching and learning. That is really, really sad for our country.”

Lois Hetland:  Boomers were boldly realistic about how dire our challenges are. Here's my brother, Paul Hetland, a retired teacher, lawyer and union leader:

Paul Hetland: “The overriding important issue is climate catastrophe. It seems to me that everything right now pales to that. If humanity survives it, it'll be something of a miracle. So if that is to be done, and it has to be done, we have to find a way that's different from what we're doing now.”

Lois Hetland: But they also pushed to keep hope alive.

Ellen Winner: “Don't say we're doomed. It's too depressing.”

Lois Hetland: That was Ellen Winner, a retired developmental psychologist from Boston College:

THE GREATEST GENERATIONS PROMOTE HOPE AND LOVE (AGES 76-100+)

Cally Flox: I'd like to talk about the focus group from the greatest generations. So much experience and wisdom was found in that group. They focus on supporting and guiding the generations who are now doing the heavy lifting, and they emphasize gentleness, love and hope.

Heather Francis: That group was so bright. I felt like the Zoom room was daylight.

Cally Flox: Yes. It was almost overwhelming. The amount of wisdom shared collectively and the authenticity of how they shared it. Now, let's hear from Stephanie Tolan, a children's book author and expert in gifted education, and Rafael Jesús González, a poet and university professor in Oakland, California:

Stephanie Tolan: “Right now what we need more than anything is to find a way to have hope. Instead of focusing always on the problems, and the awfulness, and the terror, and the destructiveness—we need to find and focus on those moments of hope and say, ‘Okay, it's like a little teeny flame,’ so you blow on it a little bit, and you try to increase a little bit. That's what I'd like to see, is looking for the people that say, ‘Here's something that's working right here, it's really small, but it could maybe get a little better.’”

Rafael Jesús González: “Always, always there has been the influence of generations into generations, grandmothers spending time with their grandchildren, mothers spending time with their children. The thing, again, is capitalism: we say women don't spend time with their children anymore. They're ‘liberated’ to go work. A lot of that is not liberation of the people that I know. The women are forced to go to work just to pay the rent. If they didn’t have to go to work, they would spend time with their children. Men want to spend time with the children as fathers. We don't have parental leave. We talk about family values but the family is not valued.”

Cally Flox: This group also includes Steve Baugh, retired university professor and superintendent of schools in Utah County, and Nina Serrano, radio host, filmmaker, and author living in Vallejo, California:

Steven Baugh: “We have, I think, considerable impact with administrators, with principals, with superintendents, with university professors that have a great deal to do with what happens in public education—those math professors, science professors, art professors and so forth. If we could help the university professors, the public school administrators, and teachers to provide a nurturing pedagogy and access to knowledge, stewardship responsibility could go a long way towards changing a system.”

Nina Serrano: “I think that we have to have kindness, loving kindness, as the basis of our education, so that we can have nurturing classrooms. The arts, the training in the arts, is one of the best ways for creating nurturing classrooms because it gives people the freedom to explore their creativity. There's a lot of joy in creativity, and a lot of collectivity in creativity.”

Heather Francis:  Given these glimpses into the many hours of conversations we have had over the past year, what are the similarities and differences that we did experience among the conversations in these groups?

SIMILARITIES AND DIFFERENCES ACROSS GENERATIONAL CONVERSATIONS

Lois Hetland: All the groups shared similar topics of concern. But their approach is different, depending on where they are in their lives. Gen Z members seemed really direct about what was happening to them. Millennials were in the thick of doing work and things and they seemed more action-oriented and practical. Gen X members seemed to think more systematically about the issues, and they use a lot of theoretical perspectives. Boomers seemed pretty philosophical. The greatest generation focused with a deep sense of compassion, on the basics of hope, and love, and kindness. The same concerns showed up in different flavors depending on where each group is in their life experience.

Heather Francis: Yes, and we are not saying, “All millennials feel this way,” or “Oh, boomers are philosophical.” We're not making generalizations. We're attending to what we experienced this past year with these individual people. We are making meaning together about these individual voices.

Cally Flox: They all responded to the same questions.

Louise Music: Everyone spoke so sincerely. High-school kids were really ready to share their ideas in very open and honest ways. Millennials and members of Gen X who are working so hard had much to say about everyday life and what it feels like living and working in the world. Boomers had that perspective where they were being much more philosophical as Lois was saying. The beautiful generosity of the octogenarians and the greatest generation who created such a spacious, simple, honest, accessible place for everyone.

Lois Hetland: What I loved about the Generation Z individuals was how they sat up straighter and really grew a foot because we'd asked them their opinion. They shared openly and they seemed so proud of being listened to seriously. I think that's a real problem.

Cally Flox: I agree with Lois. Generation Z students were almost surprised to be asked their opinion. They're so used to being in school and being told things. They couldn't believe we asked their opinion and their insights. It was fun to watch.

Louise Music: Our next episode centers on what we've learned from these conversations, not just what topics surfaced. We synthesize all the conversations and how they have come together for more understanding.

Heather Francis: The CHLL podcast is produced by the BYU Arts Partnership. Special thanks to James Huston for editing, Tavin Borrowman for the artwork and Scott Flox for the music. If you like what you've heard, please leave a review. This helps tremendously as we work to bring more people to our chill conversations. You can find the show notes and more about CHLL at the chllpodcast.com Find us on social media, our handle is @chllpodcast.